compulsion and weight pull

[wheezie wayne]

there are many threads throughout all the forums discussing weight pull. Non of these threads i have seen discuss using compulsion when training the dog. Is it taboo to talk about these things? Surely there are people that are using compulsion whether it be an e collar, pinch collar, or something of that nature.

Anyone here care to share there experience in using compulsion to train there dogs? And if you feel no compulsion is needed please explain why you think that.

[smith family kennels]

I dont know how to answer this question right now cause my mind is not with me today lol I have tried it once but never used it and it actually work. If the dog doesnt want it to do and its not fun for the dog and the dog doesnt feel like hes getting something out of it. Then the dog is not going to give it everythign he has out of either fear or just doesnt like doing it. Dog has to like his job and if he is getting choked or shocked then hes being forced and he isnt going to like what he does. Hes not getting a postitive thing for doing it hes getting a negative for not doing it. While this may work on other dog training. I wouldnt use it for weight pull training and havent on training any of my dogs. Now It was tried as a means of correcting a already trained dog but it didnt work. Reputition I feel is better than Compulsion. If you do something over and over and over again eventually it will become second nature.

[George Bailey]

Wheezie, I was just talking about this--- I don't feel that you should apply compulsion to dogs in appetitive sports, particularly beginner dogs, and if you have an advanced dog and he says he doesn't want to do it, check for a medical reason, if okay, take a break and/or go to another sport with that particular dog.

I do feel that compulsion applied as indirect pressure (in real life obedience or something unrelated to sport) tends to permeate your entire relationship with a dog, in a positive way. I've found that some of the best dogs I've worked over the years are on the hard (dare we say dominant in this day and age) and physically insensitive side, so the thoughtful use of compulsion has not only been beneficial but necessary. One of the main problems I've found with the use of compulsion on this type of dog is that they can get to the point where the fight is more important than the final result of whatever task you are requiring them to do, so if you have one like this, you have to wade in and not be wishy washy or you will end up with neverending escalating force based battles.

I think that consequences should be a part of management throughout a dogs life--- many if not most problems are caused by owners allowing too much freedom, not giving clear information and setting boundaries. I see too many handlers try to correct after having gone pure pos for far too long end up with either shut down or a bite. I know I'm preaching to the choir as you are not a novice trainer and realize that compulsion should never be applied in anger or emotionally, but feel I must mention this as that's what most people think it is.

George Bailey

[Howardpit1]

I actually beleive, if you are into high competition levels of weightpull, you eventually will have to use some compulsion. It depends on the dog and the training that you have done all along. It could be a simple pop on a choke or flat collar, just to get the dog's attention, or maybe a prong collar. However, I don't beleive in some of the extremely hard measures that some WP people resort to.

On another note, I have seen some weightpull dogs so soft and submissive, even a light correction could ruin them. I personally can not deal with a dog like that, so have tried to weed them out, of both my amstaff and apbt lines.

[PullDawgPits]

I don't think that compulsion has any place in weight pull. But then again that is EXACTLY what I love about weight pull.

IMO, dogs pull because they want to. To me it is a very pure form of having fun with the dog.

Take a forward dog, condition, teach them the harness (drag weights), introduce the track (fun and lots of praise) and you have a dog that wants to pull.

I think the quickest way to ruin a pull dog is to overface the dog and let it realize that sometimes it can't pull the weight. (this is why we push through) It is all fun for the dog, the dog pulls because it can.

Stephanie

[wheezie wayne]

thanks for everyone reply's thus far. Just so everyone knows when i reference using compulsion i am only suggesting the usage after the dog knows its job not in the actual learning and training phase. ( even though training never ends)

pull dawg- what do you do when the dog gives you the middle finger and says, you know what.... i just don't feel like it. I would think a dog that truly enjoys pulling to the point where his only reward is praise would be few and far between. Sure there are those that may like light pulling but when the weight gets heavy ( i would think ) the dogs would loose intrest and the praise is no longer enough to keep the dog in it.

You all have pulled, i have not. these are just my thought and i figured it would be a good conversation.

[Howardpit1]

Hi Wheezie,
That is what I mean, when the dog throws you the middle finger. Or even in the training stages when you have a dog wanting to jump on the cart handlers and the cart, causing tangles and such. Many people dont' realize this, but compulsion does not alwyas have to be harsh. Pushing a dogs head down, tugging on a collar, leading with a leash, are forms of compulsion. I don't believe in correcting a dog when they can not pull a weight, or if you don't know they can pull it. Also, when you are dragweighting, if you use a leash and make the dog follow you, that is compulsion.

[PullDawgPits]

It has been my experience that if you start the dog right, work the dog right and most importantly condition the dog right they don't give you the middle finger. That is my whole point, if the dog isn't pulling it is because they can't so you push em through, praise them and put em up.

As for drag weighting, I don't lead the dogs. I do have a leash on (to keep them from taking off after something) but it is just a long walk with a harness and weights. Not heeling, not structured just go. They learn to just go.

I am not saying that this is the correct way, I am saying this is my way. My love for weight pull came because I saw how much fun it was for the dogs.

The fact that you cannot FORCE a dog to pull that doesn't want to is exactly what makes the pullers, pullers. They WANT to be there. If they don't want to be there they won't last long.

The training comes in as a fun relationship between handler and dog, it must stay fun, it must stay positive or the dog will quit on you.

Stephanie

[PullDawgPits]

Hi Wheezie,
That is what I mean, when the dog throws you the middle finger. Or even in the training stages when you have a dog wanting to jump on the cart handlers and the cart, causing tangles and such. Many people dont' realize this, but compulsion does not alwyas have to be harsh. Pushing a dogs head down, tugging on a collar, leading with a leash, are forms of compulsion. I don't believe in correcting a dog when they can not pull a weight, or if you don't know they can pull it. Also, when you are dragweighting, if you use a leash and make the dog follow you, that is compulsion.



I get below the dog to encourage the head down or just let them learn to rise into the harness with their shoulders. It isn't head down as much as it is shouldering into the harness.

Stephanie

[PullDawgPits]

thanks for everyone reply's thus far. Just so everyone knows when i reference using compulsion i am only suggesting the usage after the dog knows its job not in the actual learning and training phase. ( even though training never ends)

pull dawg- what do you do when the dog gives you the middle finger and says, you know what.... i just don't feel like it. I would think a dog that truly enjoys pulling to the point where his only reward is praise would be few and far between. Sure there are those that may like light pulling but when the weight gets heavy ( i would think ) the dogs would loose intrest and the praise is no longer enough to keep the dog in it.

You all have pulled, i have not. these are just my thought and i figured it would be a good conversation.

I think this is precisely why apbts make the best pull dogs. It isn't like a gsd. The apbt has a "forward" drive above all else IMO. They don't want to quit, that has been bred into them for centuries. That no quit is there, we just have to tap into it and channel it.

Stephanie

[wheezie wayne]

i think the no quit attitude is just the dog having a high drive and or enjoying what its actually doing.

[OldfortKennels]

I would think a dog that truly enjoys pulling to the point where his only reward is praise would be few and far between. Sure there are those that may like light pulling but when the weight gets heavy ( i would think ) the dogs would loose intrest and the praise is no longer enough to keep the dog in it.



That is exactly right, I mean thats the long and short of it. That is why there is a slew of pulldogs and only a handfull of great ones. IMO you CAN NOT make a dog pull, the dog has to want to. If the dog quits on you and says screw it, how can you MAKE him pull? You cant, there is nothing you can do. It takes a dog wanting to pull to make a pull dog. If they have the desire, you harness it and direct it but thats all you can do. For examply, Switch has been my best puller. The very first time I put him in a harness on an empty cart he walked into the harness and when he felt the weight he went to clawing and digging like nutz!!! That was when I knew I was onto something big! He wanted to do it from the getgo! If at anytime he quits, I can only encourage him and hope he tries for me but there is no way to make a dog work if it does not want to.

[wheezie wayne]

i think the no quit attitude is just the dog having a high drive and or enjoying what its actually doing.

this goes for aspects of any activities any breeds of dogs are doing

[wheezie wayne]

That is exactly right, I mean thats the long and short of it. That is why there is a slew of pulldogs and only a handfull of great ones. IMO you CAN NOT make a dog pull, the dog has to want to. If the dog quits on you and says screw it, how can you MAKE him pull? You cant, there is nothing you can do. It takes a dog wanting to pull to make a pull dog. If they have the desire, you harness it and direct it but thats all you can do. For examply, Switch has been my best puller. The very first time I put him in a harness on an empty cart he walked into the harness and when he felt the weight he went to clawing and digging like nutz!!! That was when I knew I was onto something big! He wanted to do it from the getgo! If at anytime he quits, I can only encourage him and hope he tries for me but there is no way to make a dog work if it does not want to.

thanks for replying andy.

you said..... IMO you CAN NOT make a dog pull, the dog has to want to. If the dog quits on you and says screw it, how can you MAKE him pull? i can think of a few ways that you could make the dog pull when practicing at home. Of course these ways would not be allowed when at an actual sanctioned pull. When im training my dog there are many things i do that are not allowed when i trial. most dogs are not very smart and are easy to manipulate. You do things when you train, and then manipulate the dog into thinking the same thing is happening when you show.

[OldfortKennels]

i can think of a few ways that you could make the dog pull when practicing at home.

Im curious as to what because I can't think of any? I mean, how do you MAKE a dog pull that doesn't want to????

[wheezie wayne]

pinch collar and e collar are two ways i have heard people do it. forcing the dog to do something they don't want to but are 100% capable of doing. letting them know that compliance is non negotiable. im not saying its right or wrong.

[topgunpits]

pinch collar and e collar are two ways i have heard people do it. forcing the dog to do something they don't want to but are 100% capable of doing. letting them know that compliance is non negotiable. im not saying its right or wrong.

yea that might make them pull but if they dont like it they wont give you all they have to give

[NATE]

The biggest part of training a dog and pulling a dog is to NOT LET THEM FAIL you can be the best trainer in the world but once a dog thinks it can't its done
I let someone talking me in to trying to fix a dog with compulsion it just made it worse .
My advise if you have a dog that wont pull work other dogs in front of it show the dog or dogs you work alot off and praise then the dog that won't pull tends to get pissed cause of the the extra time and love the working dog is getting . Thats is the only way i know to get a dog to pull that doesn't want to .

[OldfortKennels]

I would think that a dog that has already shut down, or is showing signs of shutting down would just be made worse with the use of an e colar or pinch collar. I sure dont see it being sucessful in the long run. I have seen lots of dogs shut down when it gets hard because they lack the motivation to really work. I would think the same would apply to using such methods as mentioned above. Its like baiting, they are not pulling because they want to, but rather other reasons. Whenever I went to pulls and saw dogs being baited, I wrote them off as no need to worry. When it got hard, the bait was never enough to make the dig down inside and pull it out. I just dont see these techniques working in a sport that I consider to be all about the dog being confident and enjoying. If the dog doesnt enjoy pulling and is confident they can, they never will be more than average.

[jbh38]

I don't think that it really has anything to do with the dog enjoying pulling, the pulling is work that they know they are rewarded for. What the dog enjoys is spending the quality time with YOU, they aren't on the chain just waiting to pull a cart, they are waiting for their turn with you. Yes, you have to train them to pull, but there also has to be a bond with you and the dog, that is what is so great about pulling to me. They are my dogs and they work hard for me, will they pull for someone else, yes, because they are programmed to do it, will they pull as hard, probably not. Will every dog make a pull dog, no, but they may be more suited to something else and no matter what you do, they just aren't going to make it, so shocking or choking or whatever isn't going to help.

The best example I know of a dog and a bond was when Jimmy pulled Reno. Everything that dog did was for his daddy, he watched his every move going down the track, knew what he needed to do and was so excited and proud of himself at the end. Reno was a good puller, but what really made people pay attention to him and Jimmy pulling was the bond you could see between them.

That to me is what pulling is all about, me and my dog.

[OldfortKennels]

JBH38 is absolutely correct!

[shadowwolf]

I've seen the aftermath of people who've used severe compulsion in weight pull. The dogs pull because they're afraid, not because they love to do it. The sheer sadness oozes out of these dogs in their entire body posture and their style of pulling. It's a sad thing to see these dogs pull.

I pull because my dogs love to do so. We work together to build their desire. We work past barriers and hang ups. It's that bond that makes it work.

The bond that's there between my dogs and I is something I cherish more than anything. Being out there with my dogs on the track - even if they're not the best that day - is the thrill of it all. Being able to work them, even when you can visually see they're exhausted and wanting to quit, but they don't because they want to keep working for you. That's what WP is all about, in my book.

[mopulldogs]

I actually beleive, if you are into high competition levels of weightpull, you eventually will have to use some compulsion. It depends on the dog and the training that you have done all along. It could be a simple pop on a choke or flat collar, just to get the dog's attention, or maybe a prong collar. However, I don't beleive in some of the extremely hard measures that some WP people resort to.

On another note, I have seen some weightpull dogs so soft and submissive, even a light correction could ruin them. I personally can not deal with a dog like that, so have tried to weed them out, of both my amstaff and apbt lines.

I would have to disagree with this, we have been pulling 20+ yrs now. I haven't used any form of harsh correction, no chokes (in over 17+ yrs), never used a prong, shock collar etc. The harshed correction one of our dogs gets is us going nose to nose with them and in a calm voice giving them the big "Shame On You" . We don't even tell a dog that is starting training or even mid level in its' training "No". Simply because they might no under stand thewords/commands given in relation to the required action. You cannot force a dog to pull. A dog that PULLS OUT OF FEAR will not give you it's all on the track when in counts. Because it knows if it cannnot complete the task that there is a correction coming and the dog will shut down.

Our philosphy is "Build the Mind and the Body Will Follow" plain and simple. Would you want to go to work for someone that constantly yelled at you and yanked your neck? I don't think so. Your dog is your partner and must be treated and handled with respect. A good weight pull dog thinks they are the best dog in the world and that there is nothing they can't do...It is your job to make them think this way. I do have some info on my website for how to properly start a dog in weight pull and our training philosphy, it has worked very well for us :cool:

[NATE]

While i agree with you i have saw dogs that pull out fear and saw some give there all and you might ask how they get there dog to give there all ? they get there kids out there to help pull them as we all know these dogs are kid driven

[Howardpit1]

First of all, I think people are missing the point. Compulsion is anytime you make a dog do something. When you use praise or reward that is motivation. A good trainer uses both.
When I have used a dog in weightpull, it is always a dog that likes it, and I prefer the ones who are natural at it. I start out with long drag weighting walks onleash. I do not even go to the cart until my dogs already know what work means on the sled. I am patient and teach with all motivation. However, if along the way one of those dogs decides it is more fun to try to visit with the cart handler or jump on the cart. I simulate a pull event at home, and when the dog does it again, I give them a "pop" on a slip or choke chain, a prong would work as well.

Yes, this method would not work with a soft dog, a dog that did not like weightpull or one that shuts down. However, I would not try to work a dog like that.
All dogs will quit, if you make them quit. Usually, if you burn them out or make them quit by asking them to pull more than they can

I also have seen dogs that have been shocked or cattle prodded to the point they have to be carried to the cart or dragged. I am not talking about doing that.

I still beleive that many top level competitors in weightpull use some form of compulsion, somewhere in their training, even if they do not admit it or know that it is compulsion. Think about this ....when drag weighting you dog on a leash, you are using compulsion if that leash ever tightens up or you try to get their attention with it. If you yell no or drag your dog away from another dog that is compulsion. If you push its head down, that is compulsion.

I do agree that good dogs pull because they want to and because of the bond they have with their owner. I also beleive some dogs "just have it" and some don't. I also know some lines of dogs are soft and shy, and even if no compulsion is used will still look beat down.

When people are new to weightpull, I never suggest any type of compulsion or force be used. In fact, I really push the obedience come separate from the pulling. I also push tons of dragweight and not much cart, as they all want to go to the cart before they are ready.