should they or should they not???

[MADSmith]

i just noticed that there were no post in this section, so i'll kick it off. Should the American Pit Bull Terrier be used for sporting events such as Schutzhund and personal protection work? i have my own opinions but would like to hear other's thoughts on the topic.

[Dansgrizz]

I think because of the APBT's desire to please and its will to compete its worth as a working dog in ANY arena is unmatchable. They SHOULD be used in competitive schutzhund trials and protection work, so long as they recieve the highest level of training available. As far as amatures using the dog as an attack dog or a guard dog....THE APBT IS NOT A GUARD DOG AND SHOULD NEVER BE USED AS ONE.

[APBT_MOMMA]

I think schutzhund would be neat BUT my 2 girls probably wouldn't do so good in it only because they would refuse to bite a sleeve most likely. They are just full of licks and jumping up with wagging tells. I can't get my darn girls to be serious. But like Dan said, as long as they recieve the highest level of training available, it would be good for an owner to put their APBT through Schutzhund trials for the working part but I don't think it should be taken advantage of by the owner to try and make their pitty an attack or guard dog.

[Nizmo357]

i think they should be used for schutzhund. when Nismo is around 1yr im going to get him started in it.
but i also believe that you need to go to a reputable trainer, one that is familiar with the bully breeds. none of this, i have a bite sleeve so i must be a trainer.
im already looking for a good trainer and im going to look high and low.

[4pitsNgiggles]

i want to do it too- i have a friend that's a vet that has her german shepard in schutzhund training. but we have a lot of work to do before we go there... ;-P

[christySYK]

I have no problem with the APBT in schutzhund or PP work. It is a dog that needs a job and both aspects are very demanding. People forget that the obedience part is VERY demanding and very strict. I have often thought of doing it strictly for the obedience part.

[Dansgrizz]

I have no problem with the APBT in schutzhund or PP work. It is a dog that needs a job and both aspects are very demanding. People forget that the obedience part is VERY demanding and very strict. I have often thought of doing it strictly for the obedience part.

Hey Christy I hear at ADBA convention there will be a seminar on using and training the APBT for all kinds if protection. I'd love to hear about it when you get back....

[christySYK]

Yeah its going to be part of the Convention I believe. I'll let you know what they say :)

[Dansgrizz]

Yeah its going to be part of the Convention I believe. I'll let you know what they say :)

Spank you!!! It being breed specific should be very enlightening to us all.

[George Bailey]

My grandpups are Schutzhund prospects and I have Schutzhund dogs who train obedience in my classes. My experience is only the most sound in temperament and structure with the most dedicated owners will succeed. The average owner has no idea of the amount of work that goes into a sport title and few are willing to invest the time.
Public perception of Schutzhund dogs is about as accurate as their perception of our breed.

George Bailey

[chris mercer]

George Bailey, I have a friend who is working with a Dutch/GSD X, this is his first dog. He was impressed by the shots of your dogs going over the jumps and all of your accomplishments. I have been bragging on you since our study group. He has been pestering me to ask you why you weren't involved in Schutzund and out of respect I figured that was your business. Now that this on the round table would it be fair to say you don't have time? Chris Mercer

[George Bailey]

Chris,

I am old! I hate the great outdoors--- here in Houston, we have hot, humid summer most of the year. Bugs love the tropical weather, big hungry mosquitos, fire ants, snakes, etc. I'm not big on sports where I can get injured. I'm quite happy representing in obedience, for the breed, for the kennel, for the relationship between my dogs and I. Besides, you make time for what you really want to do.

George Bailey

PS Obedience, well done, can be a thing of beauty. These aren't the easiest of breeds to do obedience with, you have to have thick skin, a sense of humor, and be more persistent than your dog-- but when it all clicks, it's quite exhilarating.

[CASH]

LOL... I remember texas summers. not fun stuff

[Dansgrizz]

Yeah its going to be part of the Convention I believe. I'll let you know what they say :)


Soooo what'd they say?

[chris mercer]

George Bailey and Dansgrizz, doesn't any one sleep? George, good answer. I haven't even wanted to ask, it seemed to me that if you wanted to try it you would. Hey, to all those involved in this sport my hat off to you. Is all the ob work taught at such a frenzied pitch? Every one talks about getting the dog in ball drive, they seem pretty motivated already. Chris mercer

[DeidreM]

Is all the ob work taught at such a frenzied pitch? Every one talks about getting the dog in ball drive, they seem pretty motivated already. Chris mercer[/QUOTE]

Funny.

[...Sydney...]

I personally love working with an APBT in Schutzhund...I enjoy the training and relationship you build with your dog. I think it is important though to be involved in all three aspects of the training especially with this breed to help build an all around dog. I am not looking to compete on any certain level just gain a few title with her for personal enjoyment. I personally feel as though the year we took off from training really hurts us, and with a full time job we do not have the time or money to dedicate to it like I would like.

I do however feel that it is something that needs to be done properly if your going to do it...find a good trainer one with experiance with pitbulls/bulldogs...

[SMThe]

I think that, like anything else, it'll be the humans who'll screw it up ... not the dogs.

[infinity]

The controversy come's from the fact that for 100's of years APBT's have been bred to be extremely human docile.

Where this sport is protection work.

[George Bailey]

Yes, and this is why people who want to train Schutzhund must find someone who has successfully trained the breed. They are NOT trained in the same fashion as a GSD or any other breed whose function is protection oriented.

George Bailey

[chris mercer]

There have been a few breeds that have been finished to Shutzund three that don't fit the norm for protection dog. Labs,Chesapeake Bay retrievers to name a few. Although the latter does have a reputation of being a bit HA. It's a matter of individual choice and if you just want to see how far you can go in the training and also not ruin your dog by putting too much pressure on it in protection. I don't participate in this sport but spent a few months at different clubs just as an end in itself and it was an eye opener. It is certainly a complete dog sport but there seems to be a lot of emphasis on protection. There was a pit that scored very high at the SE championship this year.

Chris Mercer

[infinity]

See the thing is, I see both views on the subject. That's why I'm on the fence.

I allso Know that certain APBT's excel at this sport. And out of all the controversy nothing bad AFAIK has ever happened with these dogs participating in this sport.

But some believe it can harm the breed.

We all know the APBT was bred for a purpose, And in the old days participating in that purpose meant the dog could never ever bite the handler. Dogs that did where culled on the spot "so history tells us".

This brought to us the modern day APBT, great with ppl (after all they see us as there pack and not other dogs) coupled with amazing athletic ability, intelligence, drive, and gameness.

I've heard some say that training a dog for protection work goes against 100's of years of selective breeding. And that the ability of the APBT coupled with the newly inherited acceptance that biting a person could be a good thing, makes for a devastating mixture that could have grave consequences. Some believe that putting this breed under them circumstances can make for a unstable dog in certain circumstances.

I have never seen for myself any of these claims to be true. But like I said I understand both sides.

[George Bailey]

An unstable dog cannot do Schutzhund. The bitework is controlled to an extreme degree; the dogs are not attacking a person, they're biting a sleeve. Some of our best trainers are Schutzhund competitors, one of whom is on this forum, Howard Burgess. The people who dedicate their time and effort to training and titling our breed in this sport are not your average guy who wants a big bad sic 'em dog, the sport is too much disciplined work for them--- that's where the bad image comes from.

George Bailey

[infinity]

I agree I'm just relaying stories that I have herd.

And claiming that I can understand how some ppl would feel about it.

I know they are biting the sleeve and not attacking a person.

But isn't there trigger conditions in the sport. could the dog always tell 100% if it's a bite sleeve or maybe a jacket sleeve? Could the trigger conditions ever be unintentionally/accidentally/artificially recreated? <----{ lots of words ending in "ally"

Isn't the point of the training/sport to train the dog for real life protection work? Or is it solely for show?

Honestly I'm not very educated in this sport.

[chris mercer]

I see Brian's fears I think. What will it take to get a dog that has been bred for generations not to be HA to be turn on that protection mode. I believe I'm over my head speaking on this subject but I thought that I could teach my dog to target on the sleeve and kind of fake the aggression. I know that in training one of the biggest rewards for the dog after he has bitten the bad guy is to carry the sleeve away proudly in his mouth. Julie you are right only a very stable dog should be used. There were a few that the handlers warned us to stay away from while they were loose and off the field. It was the general feeling of the other club members that these dogs weren't stable while others are just too civil. Will it ruin your pit? Work with a good trainer. C mercer

[Dansgrizz]

The more I think about schutzhund(strictly in the ring and not being applied in "real wprld sitauations"), the more I think that a dog can tell the difference between a sleeve and a human. True the sleeve is connected to the human but theflirtpole and tug rope are also connected to the human...

I think there's a huge difference between doing feild trials and bite work, and teaching HA...

[infinity]

I'm confused... So the object is for the dog to think that it is fighting for an object in the persons possession, and not the actual person themselves.

If that's the case then why even label it under protection work. And not just extreme keep away.

[chris mercer]

Man, I'm my own worst enemy. I've still got coffee left and I've been watching dock diving in Tidewater club and Carolina. Any way the idea I think is to train the dog to target this area so not to hurt the bad guy, I can't remember what he's called. Their are dogs out there that are dirty going for the face or plowing into the bad guy feet first. They are trying to win the game. Originally Schutzund was a test for GSD to evaluate their breed worthyness . I know you know this but my point is it is now a sport and an end in it self. It is too much for me but I will say it is about a whole bunch more than biting. Tracking,OB and then the protection. Dan's right they certainly know the difference between flesh and plastic. But when there excited and very driven they may bite you, hey they all have teeth. C Mercer

[infinity]

While I was never against this sport, I can say I miss understood it.

I thought this was training / showing off ability for like police dog type work or "help my life is in danger" type situations. (protection)

I had no idea it was only for show.

lol kinda reminds me of modern day wrestling on tv. But then again I have never seen it in real life, only seen videos of it.

[Dansgrizz]

The application of schutzhund CAN be used in real life situations Kev but MOST people who do schutzhund never leave the sport and use their dogs for protection. Alot of protection dogs aren't "formerly trained" in schutzhund either. Just because my dogs pull weights on a track doesn't mean they use it for anything ...useful! Lmfao.

I guess you could say that a dog trained in Schutzhund COULD translate it over into sleaveless work but you'd have to proof that to know it, which would get messy.

[George Bailey]

Kevin,

The sport was designed for German Shepherds, our breed is definitely the odd man out. The dog is not fighting. It is trained to bite a sleeve. Some of ours fail because they can't bite something attached to a person and aren't big on barking. For our breed, it is a sport, not a vocation, takes a special dog and trainer to earn these titles. It is a very controlled and disciplined sport requiring hours and hours of training.
I've known lots of guys over the years who think they have a 'badazz dog' and want to do Schutzhund, who pale and run when they find out how much work is involved, or that their HA dog is not capable of doing the work.
No, there are not triggers which will cause a Schutzhund dog to attack on its own, the point is they are under extreme control.

Go see a Schutzhund trial! You might like it!

George Bailey

[George Bailey]

Chris wrote:
"Any way the idea I think is to train the dog to target this area so not to hurt the bad guy, I can't remember what he's called."
He's called the guy with future rotator cuff problems.

George Bailey

[infinity]

Go see a Schutzhund trial! You might like it!
You know I really should. It's just there has never (to my knowledge) been one any where at all around here.

Maybe some one on here could help me out with finding one.

[...Sydney...]

Chris wrote:
"Any way the idea I think is to train the dog to target this area so not to hurt the bad guy, I can't remember what he's called."
He's called the guy with future rotator cuff problems.

George Bailey

Bwahahahaha! That is funny...and true!

what people who aren't educated in the sport aren't aware of is like George Bailey said, everything is done under extreme control...

At home we practice obedience and tracking so we leave less time to this in training and only focus on what we need to...At home we DO NOT practice any sort of protection/bite work/agitation training etc...so more time is spent on this in training...Also it is done last and tends to be the dogs favorite part, so it's sort of a reward, and you see alot of it in pictures and videos cause it's far more entertaining and flashy to watch!! Do you really want to see a bunch a pictures of a dog with it's nose in the dirt...LOL

As far as my dog and most dogs trained in the sport (there is always the dirty exception or those not cut out for the sport) THEY KNOW THE DIFFERENCE! My dog knows when we are going to "work"...we have a back pack with different collars and leashes and treats and whatnot. When I pull out her collar used for Schutzhund she gets excited like many dogs do when they know they are going for a "car ride" or whatever your dog's thing is.

Again you know they know they difference when they are sweet and happy and excited to see the trainer out of suit...then an hour later goes into working mode on the field when he/she is in the suit w/ sleeve. But if you only do certain things under certain conditions and leave it all on the field...the dog will to.

Just like at home, we do not play where we train the two do not cross...I want different mind sets.


Thanks for all the discussion guys I am glad I woke this thread up!!! :)

[chris mercer]

Very good summation Sydney. I hated getting up so early but my two favorite parts were the tracking and the ob. The protection was like desert for every one. Every one gets very excited as well they should, even here there is control. Brian I have to admit it's pretty cool to see that dog come around the third blind and hold the bad guy until the handler gets there. All three of them work together,when the bad guy moves the dog is on the sleeve. The run downs are great. I guess i did like it. LoL. Although I said it has become an end in itself there are still people using it in conjunction with their working dogs,ie police dogs,etc.

Chris Mercer

[Howardpit1]

I don't have a problem with a responsible pit bull owner doing schutzhund or ring with their dog. Providing they have the time and the club/trainer. It is not the people competing in schutzhund or ring that are letting their pit bulls run loose and bite people, it is mostly your average pet person. It is the person that takes the breed for granted: letting the dog out unleashed, not containing them well, or just being irresposible.