Sound conformation and the working standard

[Dansgrizz]

Now conformation in APBT as given by the ADBA is a conglomeration of a "type" put together from game dogs. Now this "show standard" was based off of a working dog. It seems the ideal working dog form meets this standard. Now my question is.... Why are people even breeding for the show ring? If you bred working dogs you'll have good healthy dogs, that you will get show stock out of by default....

What are your thoughts?

[CASH]

American way. We want papers and pretty dogs, function has fallen by the way side for most breeds. Im not saying show dogs cant be functional and functional dogs and be shown. I find it odd to base a show dog standered off of a working dog due to the fact a working type dog could be ugly as sin but if it worked then it is held up as a great animal.

[OldfortKennels]

I would dare say that alot of the "show" dogs would work if the owners chose to do so. However they just want to show the dogs so the dog does not get "worked" in a given event.

[CASH]

Are we talking about APBT or all breeds? I think the APBT is still one of the most functional breeds out. I think the differance between show and working dogs in other breeds has become more apparent.

[Dansgrizz]

I would dare say that alot of the "show" dogs would work if the owners chose to do so. However they just want to show the dogs so the dog does not get "worked" in a given event.

With a breeding program based on that idealogy, no testing. You will soon have a dog that can't work. Which doesn't make sense to me.... Why show a dog that can't work under the standard based on a working dog.

You hear about these show folks... I cross a halls dog in my stuff to get a more square head, then I added in some heinzl stuff for a deeper chest, I put in some jeep for a faster back end....

I hear this n think... Why didn't you just breed a dog with a good mouth, long wind, and extreme agilit. Testing it with work! Most likely your gonna get a good looking dog cuz it can work well also!

[Leon]

The ADBA show dog can be worked and will work, will this be the case another 5-10 generations down the road? All i can say is, if the ADBA show folks, breed by this so called conformation book, you are going to end up like the AKC. Function defines form in the working breed.

[IronChef]

People shouldn't specifically be breeding for the show ring, but conformation should play a part in any breeding program (Especially those that strive to produce the total working dog).

You hear about these show folks... I cross a halls dog in my stuff to get a more square head, then I added in some heinzl stuff for a deeper chest, I put in some jeep for a faster back end....

Personally, I rarely see this in the ADBA (and subsequently, the AADR). However, I do find this line of thinking becoming more and more evident, which is obviously unfortunate.

Could the ADBA go the way of the UKC/AKC/etc.? Perhaps, as the folks with the "real deal" are less often inclined to bring the real thing out to shows now-a-days. And the ADBA, like any registry, is first and foremost a business. But given the people who make the ADBA what is it, I don't see this happening anytime soon.

[pitbullgirl]

I can see what your sayin Dan but with people like OFK, PDP, SFK, SYK and those of us who don't have cool kennel names (:)) we will have conformationally correct dogs that do and can work. As long as there are people out there who ask these questions and who are out there doin whats right by our dogs and putting them to their full potential with working and showing I don't think that performance will ever be bred out of or forgotten in the APBT. It might lay dormant for a while in some lines but there will always be work potential there.

[OldfortKennels]

I think that as long as the dog is conformationally correct it has the ability to be an athlete. It would just have to be worked.

[NATE]

well to go back to what dan first ask

I dont know that many ppl with the balls to work our breed for what it was made for
and i damn sure dont i maybe crazy but i am not that crazy and with that said tia is a Conformation dog she has never and never will be tested so with your thinking she isnt a game dog

And my amstaff i hunt with dady is off of conformation dogs AKC/UKC last time checked that didnt stop him from taken down 250 + lbs hogs

it took 200 years of breeding to get the dogs where they are now and if your breeding for the best adba conformation dog i would think it would atleast 50 to breed game dogs to amstaffs but until they out law wp and hog hunting there will always be a working put back in the mix at some point

[Dansgrizz]

Now just cause a dog has sound conformation IMO don't mean it can work. Wonder if it has a muzzle that's proprtional with it's skull... but NO mouth AT ALL! It ain't gonna catch a fly. You won't know if you not testing. Same goes for weight pull. Say your dog has beautiful angles, tight pasterns, nice arch in the back... with 0 drive... It ain't taken that cart anywhere. Sure they bred these dogs for centuries to make them the ultimate breed... How is it our breed is over run with useless dogs that aren't even shells of the APBT? It sure as hell took alot less than 50 years to do that. Dare I say you take a good breeding... Ace to Ace, ROM to ROM, whatever... If you don't test those offspring the third generation off those dogs will be sheer luck if you get a decent one!

[OldfortKennels]

True but the opposite can also be said, a dog with all the drive in the world is useless without the right conformation. First the dog has to have the ability to work, if not its useless. That being said many many game CH produced litter after litter and only a handfull were worthy of going on the be [] Champs so just because you have a game bred and reproduced dog does not guarantee and working dog.

I would rather have a dog with the conformation and little drive than a dog with all the drive in the world and no ability.

[NATE]

dan you got to think slow down and think for few mints

by what you what you are saing a whopper dog is better than colby
sometimes i wonder if you under stand that you are still wet behind the ears a green horn because your starting to bark like a big dog

[Dansgrizz]

dan you got to think slow down and think for few mints

by what you what you are saing a whopper dog is better than colby
sometimes i wonder if you under stand that you are still wet behind the ears a green horn because your starting to bark like a big dog


Kick down some more knowledge Old Man! Lmfao. Seriously.

[NATE]

the whopper line was made to cheat at wheight pull there are still whoppers pulling today

as for the colby dogs there not worked and the ones that are showen are not by the breeder

and unless you know something i dont (witch is unlikely) the cobly family dont roll there dogs

[Dansgrizz]

Who's breeding Colby dogs? Possibly the best breeder in the world. His instinct alone is as much "testing" some need.

Where as the scatterbred whopper dogs may specialize at 1 aspect of work, when you look at the big picture is that creating a working dog? Or just a weight pull specialist?

[NATE]

well a good place to start would be for you to try reading some of the post on this board you can start with this one


http://mypitbullpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=327&highlight=Conformation

[Dansgrizz]

well a good place to start would be for you to try reading some of the post on this board you can start with this one


http://mypitbullpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=327&highlight=Conformation

Thanks Nate! I've never seen that board! It's amazing how helpful you are when you type so I can understand it ;)

[Dansgrizz]

Thanks Christy that article from rpd was awesome....here are some great points...

"The former is a luxury of a comfortable middle class whose dogs were no longer essential to their livelihood"(talking of breeding for show)

I guess necessity is the mother of invention, the working man NEEDED a working dog. Great article!

"Breeding dogs for the looks that you think will enable them to performa given task is a wrong-headed approach to performance breeding"

this makes alot of sense. since we have a performance breed doing things such as maintaining a fast back end by limiting a dogs work makes little sense to me since your showing a working dog.

"My only point is that performance breeding is historically prior to,and not at all enhanced by, conformation breeding."

why is it we see show n goes so often? Even in the gamedog world you will see,within the same bloodlines, pit dogs bred to show dogs. So what does that show dog have to offer a purealy performance bred dog?